Specifically, the etymology section? It starts off fine, but all of a sudden it "intriguingly" goes into some tentative link on a possible Turkish and Serbian origin. There's no citation, which leads me to some questions:
Is this Turkish&Serbian link referenced somewhere in official materials (games, books/mooks, interviews, etc)? If so, which/where, and why wasn't a citation provided earlier?
How can the name combine two disparate languages at the same time, and when neither language are referenced at all in any other character or place name in BlazBlue? Are we to believe that the sole Turkish&Serbian language reference put in by the Japanese developers was a bilingual name?
Since nothing remotely like this appears on any of the Japanese wiki pages for Arakune (kakuge wiki, BBwiki, etc) I am inclined to believe that this is pure fan speculation. I'm glad the member pages and blogs are so carefully moderated, but how does it look to have a main character page, undoubtedly among the most trafficked of page categories, have something so silly written on it for such a long period of time? Doesn't it make the whole wiki look low quality?
If I have fundamentally misunderstood something about this, please forgive me. Thank you for your time.
The majority of the etymologies are 'fan speculation' (Kokonoe) or just go straight to the root of the name. I personally went into Arakune's own name because I believed the spelling to be too odd to just be made up. After firing up both Google Translate and Word Lingo, I put the name in, but didn't come up with anything other than 'Arakune', so I split it up and ended up with the two translations. I did a little more research into the words and put the information I found into the page.
If you believe that it does not belong then you know where the edit button is.
Okay, I mainly ask 'why' because the 4th rule of the 'Most Important Rules' is
Speculations and "what ifs/maybe" types of information are not welcome here - only information from game and other official sources are allowed.
So either the wiki rules need to be updated, or these kinds of things have no place here.
How is the spelling 'too odd' to just be made up? Arakune is simply wasei-girishiago (和製ギリシア語, borrowed Greek word); phonetic spelling of the Greek pronunciation using Japanese's limited syllable alphabet. it's not uncommon in translated Japanese media to leave loanwords and names untouched/transliterated (it's not uncommon either to change them completely for 'localization friendly' purposes). I do understand the human predilection to see patterns even where there are none, but I'm honestly surprised that the simplest answer (Arachne) was cast aside here for something that seems so incredibly far-fetched.
So should the wiki rules be changed regarding speculation and original research, or should this be regarded more critically?
The Arachne part was mentioned at the very beginning.
I would like to point out that the etymologies were introduced a very long time ago with the approval of the administrators - pages like Rachel's and Hakumen's have very straightforward ones and it gives a nice amount of information on why that character may have been named as such.
IIRC, the etymologies are the only part of the wiki that is basically research and not officially stated information (with the exception of the Hierarchical Cities location in the modern day world). I don't believe the wiki rules should be changed since this sole section is done fairly quickly and only appears in the playable character pages for now.
Actually, it's because it's on the character pages, the most like places for people to land on from the search engine, that I feel this issue should be clarified. It's good that 'Arachne' was given top billing in the section. Unfortunately since the wiki rules state that there should be no speculation, some poor soul who doesn't know any better and has no common sense might be inclined to believe that ALL of the information provided is something other than speculation.
Following up the most logically consistent explanation with an additional possible explanation that has nothing so much as a hint from any official source, makes it seem as though both explanations are considered equally plausible by the BlazBlue wiki editors. If this isn't the case, and 'Arachne vs. Ara (Turkish) Kune (Serbian) = Intermediary Curse' not considered equally plausible, then it needs to be clarified. If anything, coincidental language association would be better off in a Trivia section, where it won't be implied that it has anything to actually do with how the developers chose the character's name.
For example: Arakune is nearly an anagram of Naraka Une, which is Japanese for "Rib from the Buddhist Hell". Arakune has bones inside, several of which resemble ribs, and Naraka is the Hindu/Buddhist version of Hell, and the Boundary has many qualities in common with the concept of Hell. This is a logically sound but completely implausible argument
Besides fan speculation, are any of the other wiki rules flexible, and if so, how flexible are they?
Coincidental language association belongs in the etymology. None of it is what was stated by the developers, and are both logically possible explanations - I will admit that there should be a note next to the ones that are least plausible, and I might even do that when I have the time tomorrow. Even when I made the Ara/Kune part, I was aware that it would be far fetched, and nothing else extends quite as far as that one. In all honesty, that example you just gave is even more plausible than the one I gave, although my unfortunate lack of knowledge on Japanese prohibits me from knowing that kind of information.
As for the other rules, they are completely inflexible. And the speculation is firmly monitored to the point of it being near impossible to add. The two cardinal sins are trivia comparisons with other characters and adding non-MCI in the MCI section of the infoboxes.
Okay, how coincidental can it be before it's considered for deletion? I'm having trouble thinking of a more absurd example than a name, divided into two parts, with each part taken from a different language which has no other references in BlazBlue, one of which has less than 10 million speakers worldwide.
If that's not the bottom of the barrel, then this interpretation of the rules opens the door for virtually any coincidental reconciliation whatsoever: maybe Bang was named when someone at ArcSys slammed the door; maybe Rachel was named after Amun Ra, the Egyptian Sun God; maybe Kokonoe was named after a developer got brain freeze from a Coconut shaved ice Cone; maybe Bullet is from Bull (Middle english for large male cattle) and Et (Latin for and). It's difficult to criticize any of these ridiculous examples when a far more ludicrous one is being presented with undue weight one of the main character's pages.
Your words are all valid, to say the least, Justice. My thoughts on this is that this case is, indeed, original research and nothing more. If it is not stated by the developers, the minds behind the series in the first place, it has no place here, and for my money, not even in trivia. I regret not scrutinizing the content of this place further and relegating myself to eying recent changes every evening upon returning home from work, and I take full responsibility for allowing this to slide past undetected. However, for obligatory elaboration...
Indeed, Night and I did give approval for the implementation of these etymologies from the start. I suppose we could've done a better job looking into their content, but that's in the past, and that's about to be fixed. This case here is, as previously stated, speculative original research - the most logical explanation, that the name is derived from the Greek Arachne, is the one that will stay. As logically sound as the dual language explanation may be, presented as it is, it is indisputably the less plausible of the two. Coincidental language association does NOT belong anywhere on this wiki, because of what it is - coincidence. We may as well mention how Arakune's mask resembles Shy Guy's, how him being a blob is reminiscent of the titular blob from A Boy and His Blob, and so on, and so forth. It's all coincidence, and since coincidence can draw innumerable associations when viewed through so many different eyes, it's simply impractical to include any note of it anywhere. One leads to another, and as we did with trivia, we must do here, before the coincidences grow too numerous and things become as problematic as they did there.
In a nutshell, Justice wins the argument here, all rules are completely inflexible, and from here on, all etymologies will go with the most logically sound and plausible option. Coincidences were eliminated as acceptable in trivia sections, and they shall be treated thus here.
As soon as time becomes more lenient on my side (hopefully tomorrow), I'll personally skim through these sections and beyond, to ensure that all dregs are gotten rid of and that the rules are enforced on all pages.
The only other page I clicked on recently was Kokonoe's, which mentioned alliteration like Taokaka's and chocolate, but not the most obvious one (in my opinion) - 子 (ko) is a diminuitive which can mean 'small' or 'young' or more specifically in this case, 'child', and konoe... ko-konoe, literally, konoe's child.
Unfortunately, many of the Japanese character names (Shishigami, Amane) are written in katakana and not in kanji, so aside from the most common meanings, there is no way to discern for sure what the designer's intention was. Amane's nickname 'Uzume' (God[dess] of Dance) is super obvious (Ame no Uzume), but as for the kanji, it's not even written in the Japanese official site or mooks/design works.
I'm new here and honestly, aside from the lyric translations, I don't intend to to contribute much or stay for very long. I apologize if it appeared as though I was hammering on this topic too hard, or singling out BP Vermillion because they were the only person who initially responded. That wasn't my intention.
Arakune's mask, however, really does look like a Shy Guy.
Thank you very much for your time.
edit: Shishigami is actually not a good example because, due to his boisterous nature, there is really only one possible interpretation, and I just checked his page and it is already there. That's nice.
Since you are far more versed than I ever will be in Japanese, if you want to add information like the aforementioned Kokonoe detail, then go ahead and add it. It will be very welcome alongside what already exists.
It seems as though this issue is not yet settled. Earlier today I edited Hazama's etymology section with a more accurate translation of the Japanese noun (狭間, narrow space/arrowslit, not sure where the 'edge' translation came from) and removed the speculative Arabic etymology. This edit was partially reverted by BP Vermilion with a note on the definition of etymology, suggesting that the Arabic Hazama is as equally valid as the Japanese Hazama.
I don't think this is viable for several reasons. It's not simply enough that a word root 'make sense'. For one thing, 'He Defeated' could apply to virtually any character since this is a video game about fighting. In any case, all of this assumes the following:
The designer knew Hazama meant something meaningful in Arabic, and
The designer intended for Hazama to be read from the Arabic meaning rather than the designer's native Japanese
These are both incredibly improbable. The note BP Vermilion left continues to say that if the Arabic reading of Hazama should be removed, then so should the Hebrew reading of Rachel. I disagree for several reasons. First of all, Rachel was originally a Hebrew noun for sheep, and over the past thousand years it has been used primarily as a given name. Rachel is, first and foremost, a name. That it is being used as a name should hardly be of question; etymology should be used here only to show what the name originally meant. The etymology section for Rachel Alucard is actually very good.
BP Vermilion states that 'Hazama' is Arabic for 'He Defeated', which is incorrect. In Arabic, Hazama is a passive, transitive, imperfect verb; the noun form would be 'Hazim'. 'Hazama' means 'To Defeat', without conjugation or nominalization. It seems absurd that it would be considered as a name for a character, especially when (assuming the designer was actually aware of the Arabic meaning), Arabic has such a rich lexicon for names.
More to the point, it seems even more absurd that the designer chose the Arabic meaning over the far more obvious and probable Japanese meaning. It's extremely uncertain whether the designers had any working knowledge of Arabic, Turkish, or Serbian, given the lack of references throughout the series. Isn't it just more likely that the Japanese designer for the Japanese video game used the Japanese meaning they already know?
Conversely, Hazama in Japanese has several meanings, almost any of which can be rationalized to fit what we know about the character (snakes slither through small spaces, the traditional arrowslit resembles a snake's eye, and in feudal Japan the arrowslit was the space in a fortification wall through which archers/riflemen could fire on outside forces). I don't think it's necessary to wax philosophical about these as long as the kanji and most likely reading are presented.
Finally, if one etymology is deemed canon then any others are irrelevant speculation. It doesn't matter if Hazama means Trilby Balisong in Esperanto if another etymology is obvious and probable.
If I'm not welcome to continue editing this wiki I understand, but I would at the very least like to know what mistakes I have made. I thought I understood the rules at the conclusion of this thread, but now I feel as if I understand them less than ever. Should I post all of the notes for my edits here in the forum first?
The Japanese name has taken priority. The Arabic translation was wrong in the beginning, but was corrected for us by a native Arabic speaker.
As for the etymology itself, 'Hazama' is in both Japanese and Arabic, so surely both definitions are worthy of being placed there? Or unless I'm mistaken and we can only go for the names that the developers have most likely put, and not actually follow what an etymology means.
I understand Arakune's situation, but not Hazama's since his etymology is ACTUALLY an etymology.
Etymology means root of the word. Hazama in Arabic and Hazama in Japanese are pronounced the same, but have completely different meanings because the languages developed independently of each other. They are not the same word, and the etymologies are mutually exclusive. If we assume that Hazama is meant to be read in Japanese, then any other etymology is irrelevant. If one meaning is chosen, it doesn't matter at all what the same pronunciation means in other languages. It is nothing but a coincidence, speculative trivia that, according to Rule 4, does not belong anywhere on the wiki.
No one has directly said I am not welcome, but my edit was firmly within the rules we established earlier in this thread. Since it was reverted anyway, it seems as though what was done did not matter as much as who did it. I understand that whoever authored most of these etymology sections (I assume it is generally a single person, due to their wild speculation and overuse of adverbs such as "intriguingly") may see their contribution as an investment, and may feel compelled to protect their territory. If that's the case, then I won't press the issue any further. I only ask for clarification because the rules say one thing and the content says another.
You're over complicating matters. The word 'assume' is being thrown around a lot and in Hazama's case, we know for a fact that the name comes directly from The Edge. There is no disputing that since, if I recall correctly, it has already been officially stated somewhere in the material.
The etymology of the Arabic word 'hazama' comes into play because 'hazama' has a different meaning in a different language, albeit the two languages are unrelated, it is still an etymology of the word itself.
The rules we established earlier in this thread concerned the Arakune situation which was the most far removed of it's siblings. It also concerned coincidences, however, this is the etymology of the name, and thus belongs? On this line, your edit was not reverted so to speak, instead, it was added alongside existing information.
Perhaps actively insulting/belittling others work ("wild speculation and overuse of adverbs" as one such example), might be a thing to stop, as it does little good here and only aims to make others feel worse about themselves. Something that everyone here wishes to no longer do since it has left a grim scar on its reputation.
I'm trying to simplify the interpretation of the rules. Etymology means root of the word, and I specified 'the' word for a reason. If Hazama's name is Japanese, then the Etymology section should cover the Japanese meaning of Hazama, because anything else is coincidental and thus ruled out by the wiki. If Hazama's name is Japanese, then the word 狭間 is and not ديفيت. Only one of these can be right and only one is important. Should we still present the etymology of both words?
If the Etymology section is meant to be open to what the characters names mean in every possible language, then it is perfectly valid to present the Arabic interpretation along side the Japanese, as well as every other applicable language. "Rachel is a Hebrew meaning 'ewe'. Ray Chel means 'Sliver of Rainbow' in Ancient Mayan. Reichieru means 'Annual Scattering Blossoms' in Japanese."
Only one of these is right, and only one is important. Do you think all of these deserve to be on the characters wiki pages? Wouldn't that be unnecessarily messy and over-complicated?
Taking Ragna's section as an example, it's more about what inspired the author to name his characters as such and how it relates to the story and the character itself ? As the author is the source of the name, it's origin and meaning is then (attempted to be) explained by showcasing what induced the author to use or create such a name ?
Mm, my Internet dies for a while, and I come back to see this thing still writhing... Alright. I don't feel like I can do much more than repeat myself/say what's already been said through my own prism, but whatever. In a nutshell, Justice is in the right ONCE AGAIN. Given that the developers are, in fact, Japanese, the Japanese etymology is the only one worthy of note here. Quite simply, we're going with common sense and going with what the developers most likely intended, which likely WASN'T an *insert far-flung language here* interpretation. The Japanese was, without a doubt in my mind, the root of this name. The etymology section was never intended to be a catch-all for any and all occurrences of the word in various languages. At the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time, the most obvious, sensible origin is the one that shall be noted here, and on every other character page on the wiki.
Further, BP, Justice never actively insulted or belittled your work - he merely pointed out the flaws that were there. Frankly, if that benign criticism really makes you feel bad about yourself, you need to thicken your skin, because that's nothing but something to learn from. Justice has proven himself to be nothing if not intelligent during his time here, so his critiques are far from invalid.
Regarding 'the edge' thing ya'll are going on about on Hazama's page, 境界 (kyoukai) the Japanese word for The Boundary, is very close to 限界 (genkai), which can be translated as Boundary, Border, Limit, and Edge. if there was any reference in English BlazBlue to 'The Edge', it is almost certain that -that- is what it is referring to. In fact, if Hazama's codename is a reference to anything within the boundary, it would have to be the way through which he escaped or siphoned power from the Boundary: The Loophole (狭間, Hazama). A narrow space or small gap in The Boundary. Does this make sense?
The problem with story-defined nouns (The Boundary, The Azure) that are the same as everyday words (border, blue) is that, when translating, it may not always be clear which one is being referred to. In Japanese, "It's The Boundary again" or "The Boundary, too" is the spelled and pronounced and punctuated exactly the same was "I'm at my limit!" or "I can't take any more!". These are by far the most common errors in translation, in my experience, because they are errors of context and require that the translator be intimately familiar with the source material, and not every translator can be that invested in every project (or probably should be, as they risk losing objectivity).
And it's not important, but I'm a 29 year old woman who isn't interested in starting a fight on a video game web page with 15 year old boys. I don't mean to impugn anyone's character, I was a teenager once too and I'm not implying that you have nothing productive to offer. But if there is any kind of animosity going on here between administrators or moderators or whatever the heck wikia calls their "people in charge" (what does a bureaucrat do...), I'd just as soon stay out of it.
Also all of these 'kudos' sending people, why not add some more voices to the discussion? Or is that what the kudos is for, tacit agreement? I don't get how the community works here, please excuse me.
Oh, I see, yes the narrow space, loophole or small gap, might be indeed what it is referencing. Specifically, it might refer to the fact that only the exact center of the Cauldron connects/leads to the Boundary, in a way it is a very small gap or a narrow place. In Phase Shift 1, Terumi utilizes that gap in order to enter Kazuma's body, so calling his next body a Loophole, which allows him to enter the world (more like exist in it in physical manner), makes some sense.
basically every etymology section that uses the word 'seems' needs trimming. 'Seems' means you're not 'sure' and if you're not 'sure' then you're just 'guessing' and if you're just 'guessing' then it doesn't belong here. I just read Valkenhayn's section 'seemingly' looks like someone typed some words into a word dictionary website, and then started imagining how they fit the character, which 'seems' backwards to me.